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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2008.12.29 03:44:00 - [1] One certianly has to laugh at this whole situation. I am glad it was (semi) uncovered that this was going on. Kudos to whoever dropped this dime in the 3rd party forum. I'll throw a vote into the pile for transparency of the involved players and their corps. I agree that this is CCPs ultimate fault.. but at the same time these players knew this was not how the system worked. If you are at this level.. you know! So they are equally as guilty as CCP. CCP absolutely knows what is going on here. They are programmers.. nothing can happen unless the code is there to make it happen. Please do not insult my intelligence with this being an exploit you missed for a year or 4 years.. a month..whatever.. In 20 years of online gaming, and even being the marketing arm for a small UT mod..rest assured.. the programmers know every bug and exploit! Most exploits in a 3D game are map and object based... This doesn't exist.. but for example sake..say a ceptor is able to penetrate a pos shield by using a high end mwd and rams the shield to gain entry. This bug/exploit (if you can call it that) is one that involves postive(i.e. mining yield) and negative (i.e. fuel consumption) numric quantities.. it HAS to be programmed in. As far as those who took advantage of the system.. I hope all your corps and accounts crumble to dust! It just makes it all the better for those who remain. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2008.12.30 00:44:00 - [2] Is it right that CCP left this (without a doubt in my mind) known issue (to them) alone (for any amount of time) for people (of CCPs choosing) to exploit? no! Did everyone at CCP know about it? I will give the benefit of the doubt here. Could be a few people with the intent on personal gain via real world dollars..GTCs etc.. I see recently one illegal isk seller now offers GTCs.. hmm? Is it right that others found this exploit (they all knew it was an exploit) and used it to their advantage? no.. So whoever at CCP should be roasted at the stake along with all of their allies who used it.. it's that simple. CCP has the ability to track this down instantly! We all know this from illegal isk sellers/buyers being caught, banned or heavily penalized with negative isk. So CCP certianly knows the full extent of this.. do not fool yourself with their corporate mumbo jumbo. That is my rational take.. If you want to go full blown conspiracy theory... one could say that CCP is actually behind their own illegal isk selling and have used it to manipulate us into paying more for the so-called legal way of GTC for isk trading. And this whole thing is a way to make isk worth less, so that people ultimately will have to buy more GTCs to stay afloat. I have no proof of any of that..and I am not one to draw way out conclusions.. but the dots certianly exist. Will CCP punish ALL of those involved? doubtful Will they reveal those involved? doubtful Will I stop playing EvE.. doubtful.. it's the best MMORPG out, and it still has yet to reach its full potential. If CCP takes full action on all those involved.. I will be satisfied.. again.. this is doubtful. So it sucks! but i'll live with it. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2008.12.30 05:48:00 - [3] one more note.. it seems prices have already risen in hi-sec areas near jita. Some have as much as doubled. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2008.12.30 17:39:00 - [4] Originally by: Bruce Destro i have a few things to say. first i believe that the isk on the 70 or however many accounts AND the isk in the corp wallets should be distributed to all affected players depending on how long their accounts have been active during the exploit and to the total numbers of non trial accounts that were active for a certain peroid or longer during the exploit. im sure the isk will total in the billions. distributing this fairly to these members maybe difficult. but i see it as the only way to make it up to use who have had an unfair advantage gaining economic stability. Actually that would balance it out. You offset the 0 cost product with 0 cost isk to those effected. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.03 16:48:00 - [5] My understanding is that the POS basically ran for free without fuel costs. Odds are unless you had access to these POS's you don't have to worry. The reality is these are mostly alt chars in alt corps.. these are alts from some of the largest corps in game... used alts so CCP can create plausible deniability about this 100% intended flaw. The impact is staggering.. some prices have risen as much as 50% It would be easy to CCP to offset this problem. Calculate the illegal material in game as a percentage of the whole. Distribute equally among all active players this same % of isk. It would take time.. but it would ultimately balance out. CCP should 1) fire their economist 2) fire the coder 3) ban everyone directly involved. CCP will 1) ban alts but not the mains 2) find a new way for the major corps to exploit the game so they can fund these massive wars to continue rather than allow these major corps to lose their foothold in low/no sec.. In essence we are talking about a USA big 3 auto bail out being kept under the rug.. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.04 16:05:00 - [6] Originally by: Xarosa Originally by: URUS FORGE My understanding is that... <SNIP!> Enough of this bullst! Do you happen to know the meaning of libel, slander, vilification, disambiguation and defamation? You sure say a lot but your words mean nothing without evidence. I suggest you keep your opinion(s) to yourself because that's all they are! Are you one of those involved in the moongate scandal and annoyed that you got caught, so you're starting a contemptuous smear campaign against ccp? Sure sounds like it to me. Petulant fool. Ya I am in on it .. you got me... thats why I want all the people involved banned. That is why I want CCP to be completely transparent. You have exposed my mastermind plot. Please sue me! really.. I want to see the judge laughing as he slams the gavel down. CCP won't ban all the players involved in this .. because of $... you think they are gonna spend $ of a lawyer based on what I have written? laughable! They are more than welcome too.. I have 3 lawyer friends from college willing to be entertained. Lets put the known pieces together 1-4 years of free fuel to MM and run several stations. 70 banned people (easily these are all over 1 year chars, and definatly alts to be able to pull this off. You don't just come in EvE as a noob and know how to set up a station and figure all this out your 1st year, let alone be allowed to have a station in low/nosec without any of the big 3 knowing about it or approving it) CCP claims stations destroyed.. but offers no locations as to hide possible knowlededge of which of these major corps are involved? The question begs.. why is CCP protecting these players and corps? What does CCP gain or lose by not being 100% transparent? Every player of EvE not involved in this should be outraged. Your isk value has just declined, and it is going to be even more difficult to climb the ladder ..unless? you trade more GTCs? hmmmm?? and who would benefit from that? lets see.. not you... not me.. I wonder?.. it certianly is a mystery.. I can tell you with 99.9% certianty that either a) you have to hack the client side b) actually have programmed in this so-called "exploit" from CCPs side.. Odds of someone hacking a client like EvEs without CCP knowing for 1-4 years of patches and updates < 0 We now know for 100% fact the much hailed economist of EvE is a hack at best since he can't even see the obvious balance of fuel costs vs materials produced. Or he simply ignored them .. either way his credability is shot. We know for a fact that illegal isk sellers are now offering GTCs at discounted prices. I find it very hard to believe that CCP somehow is in the dark and can't sew up all the illegal isk and now GTCs.. EvE is straight spread sheet stuff.. Everything from mining, salvaging to manufacturing is easily tracked. Ok now follow closely I don't want to lose you here..because these are the absolutes we are left with. a) CCP or individuals within CCP knew about it all the way from the start and have made gain from it b) CCPs coders and economists are complete novice hacks who can't even see the most basic flaws of the game Now which one of these seems more plausible? If you need help.. ask these guys. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcR-DQpuorE Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell**
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.05 06:02:00 - [7] Originally by: Xarosa Originally by: URUS FORGE Please sue me! really.. I want to see the judge laughing as he slams the gavel down. CCP won't ban all the players involved in this .. because of $... you think they are gonna spend $ of a lawyer based on what I have written? laughable! They are more than welcome too.. I have 3 lawyer friends from college willing to be entertained. I'm talking about EvE issues not legal issues. Take, for example, the forum rules. Quote: EVE Forum Rules The EVE forums are intended to provide a warm, friendly atmosphere for the EVE community. In order to maintain order and a sense of community, all users should read and follow these conditions. By participating in the forum, users are affirming their willingness to comply with these terms. This memorandum has been created to provide you with information about what you can expect here, what is expected of you, and to answer some questions you may have in your use of the EVE Online forums. I believe you are well and truely in violation of Rule 5: Quote: 5. Ranting is prohibited A rant is a post which is long-winded, redundant and filled with angry, non-constructive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and helpful in the development of the game, but rants are disruptive and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise, clear manner and avoid going off on rambling tangents. You have clearly NOT adhered to the Eve forum rules because you are ranting and raving (venting anger, inciting rebellion, etc.) about the same issue(s) in EVERY post you make! I sincerely hope CCP read this! Well 1st off I have called no one a "fool" as you have done.. I prefer to explain in rigid detail what I see.. and what is clearly plausible and more than likely fact. 2nd .. they will see it. I reported your post ;) I have mearly laid out the facts which were given and connected the dots.. being someone who worked closely with programmers in the old days of UT mods.. You could say I have some insider experience. Lastly.. I have every right to be angry. How I express that anger is a different matter! I am a paying CUSTOMER of a PRODUCT .. and I can and will expect a certian level of QUALITY of product & service as well as performance of said product. Lets say you are correct, they knew nothing.. then CCP is basically a buncha people who have no idea about what is really going on in their game. They have put up a huge front, and the exposure of this so-called "exploit" has proven that point with out a shadow of a doubt.. there is no way this can be argued if you are correct. Now from my perspective.. I am giving CCP (or someone at CCP) credit for having the brains to pull this kinda wool over the our eyes for 1-4 years. What I lay out is actually a smart albeit devious way to get more cash flow. I think dear sir, you forget that CCP is here to make money.. and this whole fiasco will make them more. Isk has been devalued throughout the entire game .. you can clearly see it with the prices that have risen. Now this means more work for some.. and more purchase of GTCs for others. If you would like to dispute an actual point I have made with some valid evidence of even plain logic. I am more than open minded to listen to rational debate. In fact.. I would love to be proven wrong. I think the only people I have thrown stones at, are the people I am paying for this game. And that is a right every customer has when they are not satisfied. Cheers! Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.05 18:02:00 - [8] ah! the famous Troll defense! When you absolutely no basis for why you dislike someone's idea or opinion.. call them a troll.. Played like a true master. It's right up there with http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up5dt_PK_7c Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.06 00:21:00 - [9] Originally by: Xarosa Originally by: Esha Latang Finding players had done this for four years would have been major egg on CCP's face, and instead of just tucking their tail between their legs and fixing it, and simply preventing the exploiters from continuing, they decide (unjustly I feel) to punish those responsible. Eve is not a simple game. You can play it with varying levels of understanding, ranging from the very little. A total green noob can do anything he wants, target other players, etc, but he learns when he pulls that trigger that Concord is not very sympathetic. But what if said noob mines an asteroid and gets double the yield? Would he even know he was getting more than he was supposed to? So then he carries on doing this for four years and then gets an instant ban. Ridiculous. I disagree. CCP do state that those found making use of exploits within EvE will be punished (see here) and appeal to all players who discover such exploits to contact them (see here). With this in mind, to further benefit the entire game universe, these exploits should be reported instead of taken advantage of. It's the players fault for making use of an exploit in EvE, not CCP's fault for overlooking a problem with their game code. We all know what will happen if we get caught cheating, so why do it in the first place? Stands to reason and should be common sense. The fact that CCP makes an attempt to seek out cheaters does not preclude CCP from being involved in "exploits" that would benefit them. The measure is not what has been done, but what is done by CCP this time and the next. Their EULA much like most games.. gives them pretty broad and flexible options, where we the customer are left with only a few options. But ok..lets give it the benefit of the doubt for a second..lets just say that these 70 people are not alts of any of the big 3..they put up multiple stations and somehow kept a stationary object out of the the big 3 corps cross hairs.. they had no probs with marauding pirates in all that time..the coders honestly missed this "bug" through the 30 odd patches a year x 1-4 years.. Let us say that all that is the truth. We are still left with one hard fact. Anyone who can balance a checkbook would have been able to see the huge discrepancy of fuel consumed vs produced materials. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.06 17:34:00 - [10] Originally by: Rob Helle Urus, Good conspiracy theory but a bit flawed. If CCP wanted to make more money the could A) increase subscriptions or B) Program a method of introducing ISK into the game that users couldn't see or make the method legal (they set the rules). Both of these would be much easier than creating an exploit that users could see and have concerns about. This at best is poor programming and failure of quality control at worst an individual programmer trying to make money and I'm sure CCP will act accordingly if it is. Esha, I agree that CCP employees should not have normal access to tranquility especially the developers, it is open to abuse. On the other side of the coin just because you are an employee of a company should you be banned from using that product, I'm an employee of a car company and it would be a pain if I wasn't allowed to purchase the product. I'm not sure what the solution is for this. umm it wasn't seen for 1-4 years .. I am betting on closer to 4. And increasing the subscription rate will not gain any new players quickly.. So they keep it cheap. Intro a way to "legally" trade GTCs.. then expose this "exploit" as a way to raise prices throughout the game. If isk goes up.. more people will consider buying GTCs to trade. It is the same principle of devaluing a currency.. Which is where I think our economist comes in ;) Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell

URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.06 17:35:00 - [11] Originally by: Xarosa Originally by: Mint Royale Everybody knows that all the Devs are playing in BoB - and as BoB didn't exploit the Ferrogel-POS-thingy CCP didn't find out until now :P I don't think for 1 second if a player discovered an exploit and shared their findings with an EvE GM/Dev that exploit would be exploitable for very long. Especially with something as lucrative as moongate. Yes, a lot of peoople are looking for heads to roll but they have already rolled and some may still roll during the course of current investigations. Let's leave it CCP to be the judge on this. Some of us feel its a fox in the hen house .. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.07 17:59:00 - [12] Edited by: URUS FORGE on 07/01/2009 17:59:45 Mikron, I repectfully disagree. If they missed it, the economic numbers should have caught it. There are just way to many pieces to the puzzle here for this to be missed for this long. I would offer this situation as one more reason why anyone directly involved with CCP should not be allowed to play the game in any fashion. The moto in game is "Trust no one!" right? CCP has some core members who play in corps.. it is rightly so that we should not trust them, and further more it is correct to think that they would be biased towards those corps. Can I prove anything.. no! but neither can you. Is their sufficient info for me to think something sticks? without question! and you should easily be able to see it as well.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.08 14:34:00 - [13] Originally by: Captain Dorja Edited by: Captain Dorja on 07/01/2009 19:40:33 Urus, the moto of the game might be trust no one, but try to keep in mind that CCP is running a business. That means they aren't going to let the devs exploit them game more than once because it will ** off subscribers. Suscribers are something that CCP is trying very hard to keep subscribing and to increase the number of new subscribers. That means they aren't going to allow real world corperate scandels of the devs in the game. It's bad for real world busines where there is real money to be made and lost, not just isk. Stop contemplating the game side issues and contemplte the real world issue: money. They want more of it. Letting devs screw up the game makes ed of players, which makes players quit which makes decreased revenue. Cap thanks for the reply, I am a business person irl.. we are all virtual business people in EvE. I do agree that CCP does not want their customers to leave in mass. And I believe they will do what they must to make sure of that. However all business, real or EvE.. is a risk reward based. Now if you follow my train of thought to its ends and aftermath, lets see who is getting the rewards here. Moon-gate has risen prices through out EvE.. I think we can all agree on this. I think we can all agree that much like real life.. In EvE there are more people with less, than there are people with more. w number of people are oblivious to this problem x number of people are going to leave EvE anyway. y number of people are going to stay no matter what a pecent of w and y will simply buy more GTCs to trade for isk. Those who hear about this in passing may think "gee CCP is really tough on cheaters" I better not buy illegal isk. What it boils down to is more GTC sales for CCP. Now if you are a business person.. would you care if a few left as long as the masses were guaranteed to buy more? are we really supposed to sit here and believe simply because they tell us it is so? While they have vested interests in corps? As long as any member of CCP is in a corp.. I will always question their responsability to their customer. Might as well let OJ sit on his own Jury. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell**
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.08 21:10:00 - [14] o/ Jossaphene, What it all boils down to is that CCP is not telling us with absolutes what is going on. They are not solidly confirming or making any denials of any of the details. They have to know what is suspected about them. They have to know this perspective is only going to grow until they make statements that are solid and firm. They need to stop this political dance around the topic response. Just hit it hard once, expose everything with 100% transparency. And no matter what side of the fence you are on.. you can't read CCPs statements and feel they have told us enough. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.09 20:46:00 - [15] Originally by: Vladina Krematoria So does this mean the Era of T2 blobs/hac gangs etc. is over..will fleets Eve wide become more balanced..are insta elite fleets going to pass away? LoL prolly not.. No it means they just cost more.. and more people will buy legal GTCs.. Players cheat.. CCP wins
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.10 05:39:00 - [16] Edited by: URUS FORGE on 10/01/2009 05:41:01 Edited by: URUS FORGE on 10/01/2009 05:39:48 Maybe this is an annual CCP event like snowballs eliminate the spaces between gameset and watch http://www.gameset watch.com/2007/02/eve_online_trouble_in_deep_spa.php
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.11 06:41:00 - [17] Originally by: Saphirro Edited by: Saphirro on 10/01/2009 22:46:41 Edited by: Saphirro on 10/01/2009 22:45:59 Originally by: URUS FORGE Edited by: URUS FORGE on 10/01/2009 05:41:01 Edited by: URUS FORGE on 10/01/2009 05:39:48 Maybe this is an annual CCP event like snowballs eliminate the spaces between gameset and watch http://www.gameset watch.com/2007/02/eve_online_trouble_in_deep_spa.php http://www.gamese**ch.com/2007/02/eve_online_trouble_in_deep_spa.php Edit: Lol nice filter. Ya maybe CCP missed the right piece of code which would have allowed that link for 1-4 years.. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell**
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.11 18:29:00 - [18] Edited by: URUS FORGE on 11/01/2009 18:29:07 T2 drone prices have risen 100% in and around The Forge, Lonetrek. Other items have jumped in price as well. Considering CCP says this has gone on for 1-4 years.. and most people agree it has to be 3-4 years. The impact is real and staggering. For folks playing the game for a year or so, this can be overcome. For someone who is brand new to EvE, it is going to be a much more difficult challenge. I find it rather interesting that they announced new patch coming. Certianly changes the topic
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.12 15:42:00 - [19] Originally by: PJRid** CCP is not going to do that,...that is give a complete and full disclosure of all this, if they do, it will completely supprise me and the rest of the EVE community for sure. I for one believe that the people that were blatent in the useage of the exploit have been caught, furthermore they have been removed from the game, as for there alts or second accounts, that is yet to be seen but,..from what i am seeing, these people have been delt with and removed from the game. CCP i believe will not act further in this respect nor will they give any explanatin or fact to the insodent. Be grateful tht we ahve been given the info that we ahve been given at this point. I for one hope that CCP DOSE give a full disclosure,....but the info that is being asked for by the players,....Its not gonna happen. >R< Fly Safe PJR, I sincerely wish to know where your confidence in CCPs handling of this situation is based? I want to know, because I desire to have that confidence. All they have said so far is that they would investigate it. That is it.. they have posted no conclusion to their investigation. We have heard about 'some' accounts no longer being heard from.. and we have 1 person who actually came forward and admitted involvement. This whole situation stinks to high heaven of last years CCP involvement with bpo's and major corps. These guys can play "what cup is the ball under?" all day long with us. Hear me out for a second.. Player gets caught Players char is banned Player has options to use alt (may or may not depending on if they banned account) or buy another character legally, just use a different credit card. My confidence in the system and the clearly apparent loop holes have yet to be satisfied. All I am asking for are the DETAILS.. I am fairly sure if you handed me $150.00-$300 of your hard earned money. You would want to know the details of how, when and why? EvE is a product, we are the customers. If this was in anyway linked to CCP as a way to drive up costs.. and sell more GTCs. Wouldn't you want to know? If this was directly linked to any of the corps CCP has players in.. wouldn't you want to know? Don't you think that CCPs emps should be banned from playing? isn't it like having the fox in the hen house? Lastly for those who think that lowsec is to locked up.. I venture to guess that If enough people get sick of it, they will fall. It just takes enough people tired of the same crap to gather together. A 1000 marauding ships through lowsec would lay waste to allot of property. Do it enough times, and their isk flow will dwindle. I do not want ccp to remove any of the big corps.. I think it is up to the players to do that. I just think players who have that goal should not have any more of an unfair advantage than exists already. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell**
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.13 05:56:00 - [20] I suggest you take a peak at the time code bazarr here on the forums. billions of isk is being traded for etcs/gtcs daily... which is all bought with real money. I have bought and sold plenty, all legally within the games rules. One only needs to look at gas prices at $4.00 a gallon does to ones wallet to realize that $2 a gallon gas is a godsend. This is a exactly what has happend in EvE.. every item has skyrocketed making isk (and real world dollars) worth less. fyi.. this issues is no longer front page news.. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell

URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.13 15:56:00 - [21] PJR, not trying to sacrifice ya here or anything.. no aggression intended. I really like EvE allot as well do my corps employees. We are carebear with a twist.. we like a little faction war now n then. I guess I am just really disappointed in CCP and the people involved in this fiasco.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:54:00 - [22] Not I.. It is my corps policy to have no involvment in such goings on. I am not all seeing.. I don't have say a crack economist team who can see all the logs and yet miss an exploit for 4 years Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:21:00 - [23] Mec.. they are just waiting for this post to die so they can lock it.. wait a little longer.. then delete it.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.15 16:16:00 - [24] Cadela, thank you for your post. CCP did not report this, this was reported on a 3rd party site. CCP only took action after it became a big topic by players. CCP talks about their economists and how they have all this security and insight into the game. Yet your answer implies they can't see everything.. even over a 4 yr period of time. So which is it? a) CCP is all knowing and can create a fair and balanced game, can track the economy of eve.. and police the game in a good & just manner. b) CCP can't see anything that is going on in the game. They are clueless or c) CCP knew about this all along and used it as a way to eventually drive up prices and increase sales of GTCs. This exploit is at the very fundamental levels of EvEs economy. It takes X fuel to make X moon material. If there is an inbalance in these two. Then it should be a glaring red number on a spread sheet. If this was a model or map exploit.. sure I would agree. Hard to fix, easy to miss.. But this is raw numbers. What I expect is the truth.. and no softball statements about them checking into the problem. I want a firm statement saying CCP will ban EVERY complete account and credit card involved in this. I think it is high time for CCP to remove themselves and their employees as players of the game. They need to remove all suspect of them and their direct involvement surrounding these so-called 'exploits' There seems to be a major problem announced annually.. and CCP always seems to be at the center of suspect.. and were actually caught red handed once. If CCP wants my confidence.. then they need to stop being my competitor in game. They need to make something that actually see's the +s and -s of the economy rather than b****hitting me about it.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.15 18:16:00 - [25] Cal.. these guys are programmers. The live and breath code, math and physics. AS a former UT2 mod designer.. I do not accept that they can not see these issues. It is impossible! CCP claims they have a grasp on the economy.. either they do .. or they do not. This is hard numbers.. no soft ..kinda maybe sorta.. i dunno.. if's, and's or but's..kinda thing. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.15 19:51:00 - [26] Cal.. lets keep it simple. CCP says they have an economist team. How can an economist be effective if he can't see the numbers? What is the point of saying you have an economist.. if they can't see them? So logic would dictate that a) CCP is full of crap and this whole economist business is BS and they can't see anything b) They can track the economy.. and give the economist numbers to work with. The exploit involves the very foundation of the EvE economy.. it is as fundamental as trit! PS.. it was me who posted X fuel produces Y material ..
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.15 20:55:00 - [27] Ok simple again..If I follow what you are saying the question begs to be asked. How valid is CCPs economic opinion, when it is only based on part of the economic picture? Any economy is based on raw material availability, manufacturing productivity, sales inventory, profit margins, etc.. If I follow your logic, again I am left with the simple fact that CCP doesn't really know anything about the eve economy ..and that decisions to add say an ORCA..have no economic foundation. After all as you would have it.. they can't see the whole picture. Or if you believe as I do..CCP is smart. They have all of this data available. I am giving CCP credit here if you think about it. I believe they have the data, I believe they have an economist who reads the data. I also believe that CCP is a buisiness and would use that economic data to CCPs own personal gains. It is a very smart business move.. however unethical. CCP needs to exit as gamers for any confidence to grow. The moto of EvE is "Trust no one!" well CCP plays the game.. I don't trust them.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.15 22:08:00 - [28] You are correct, you don't have any economic insight..If you did, you would know and understand exactly what I am saying. I do know about the economy.. real and eve.. I work for a manufacturer who produces goods sold around the world. I am a manufacturer in EvE as well as in real life.. I produce ships, modules and buy and sell on the market. I know what it takes to make items and sell them. Eve has a base of raw materials. A base of components required to make larger components. And then larger player usable items made sometimes from raw material and other times from those components made from raw material. You are asking me to trust the fox in the hen house. And that is something no logical person can do. These numbers are cut and dry. If you input x to output y and there is giant gap between something smells. This is a virtual enron we are talking about. This is 4 years, I do not believe CCP is so dumb as to miss this for that long. As someone who deals in numbers and dollars in the hundreds of millions. I just don't buy it. CCP is a business, if you don't think they would do something to help increase their sales figures. You are just being naive. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.16 00:56:00 - [29] I was simply agreeing with you on your lack of understanding the basics of economics. CCP has an economists: Yes Definition of economist: Someone who studies the underlying economic factors and trends. In a real world the outcome that information could be used to slow it down, speed it up..etc..etc. EvEs most basic economic materials: Isk, Minerals, Ice, Blueprints and of course the players themselves who build, mine and sell. This so-called "exploit" involved moon goo.. I think we can agree on that. You claim you understand a POS.. so you may know what a years worth of moon mining can produce if you had it fueled 365 days and someone was there maintaining it all the time. These are the basic economic numbers I am talking about The Fuel is the input The MMs are the output Now it is the economists responsability to know how much raw material exists in the game as to predict an outcome of fast, slow, neutral economy.. and provide possible advice on how to structure certian items as to keep the wheels turning so to speak. Without these basic numbers.. well any thing you come up with as an economist is basically a crock! So now imagine for a moment this 'exploit' in practice.. billions of materials produced by "several" pos's and sold or used for whatever. We are talking massive quantities flowing for free. No suddenly it drys up.. and just like a real world economy. It responds by raising the prices of every item that was produced by the specific materials in question. Jita was wiped out in a day of all existing inventory and then the prices skyrocketed. If you were someone who traded GTCs.. the isk you get for 1 GTC can't buy as much. Which means you might buy a 2nd .. Now who would you say sees the most benefit from prices being driven up and more GTC sales? hmm gee is it you? nooo me? nooo CCP? ding ding ding ding I understand that there are coding problems with any game.. Here is the game I worked on in 2004. http://www.moddb.com/mods/heavy-gear-forever CCP touts these things around pretty strong.. the "crack" economist.. there amazing dev team.. Well this aint so amazing. So I have to believe now That CCPs coders and economist missed this for 4 years.. I am also lead to believe that no one reported this in 4 years... when about a half dozen people in this thread have claimed to have reported it repeatedly. Sorry I don't buy it.. it's like driving a car for 4 years and not noticing that it had a flat tire all that time. I just can not believe there is no involvement from CCP on this one. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.16 14:12:00 - [30] yep nothing smells here.. now that what 8 posts where deleted? Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell

URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.16 19:42:00 - [31] and Lone Gunman.. as someone who is obviously well informed on what it takes to manufacture.. Would you agree that people will buy/trade more GTCs now that prices are up?
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.17 06:13:00 - [32] Hmm drugs too eh? not surprised.. I am betting this goes deeper than even this. Lone.. I think GTC sales will increase.. and my theory is that was the intended outcome. Create the expliot..flood the market.. then crush it, creating a huge need for what was once plentiful. In either event .. it seems those who play within the rules.. get the short end of the stick.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.17 14:11:00 - [33] Check this admitted participant..who explaines the exploit further down. http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=21936 Trying to find it, but I found another person who is band..basically saying he saw POSs owned by some of the largest corps/alliances.. pretty much doing the same thing. I will post it when I find it again..
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.17 17:44:00 - [34] People claiming one major corp having the exact starbase setup required to achieve this exploit. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=945053
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.17 21:24:00 - [35] Edited by: URUS FORGE on 17/01/2009 21:26:34 So it is now thick to post a link with possibly relevant information? If you knew me better, you would know.. that I don't want what I am finding to be true. I would rather find that other corps big & small play within the rules with minor exceptions. When one looks at low/nosec.. the common concensus is that not much goes on there without the monster corps and alliances knowing about it. I would say that thick.. * Is believing that CCP misses anything for 4 years. * That an economist would miss an exploit involving the fundamental pieces which make up the EvE economy. * That the largest corps/alliances were completely unaware of this considering the odd nature of this POS set up. So either CCP, Their economists, and the major corp alliances are either incompetents for missing this or They are super genius for being able to keep it quiet this long. Barring any new information.. I'd say masterful piece of work! No matter what side of the fence you fall on.. a poster on any EvE forum has as much if not more credability than CCPs statements.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.18 02:31:00 - [36] ok you say that.. but please go into detail. Because per CCP in the interview about this exploit.. they on one hand claim to be able to see imbalances.. but saaaay that with the billions traded it was hard to see at 1st. CCP says this is "like" a dupe exploit.. Now I can buy that "at 1st" they might miss this .. but this is 4 years.. and multi trillions. Cause to me an economists of any worth would be looking at these specific interchanges regularly to make assesments as to how certian economic sectors might be to hot or to cold. So the only way you could be correct is if the economist never looked at the balance of moon mining consumption and production in the last 3 years. The imbalance being the obvious lack of fuel used vs material produced.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.18 19:25:00 - [37] I have not chosen to believe anyone.. I have chosen to try and find out what has happend. I would say that I have pointed out what is 'most likely' based on the information at hand. It could be a x major corp pointing fingers at y corp and y corp denying it.. I can only go by all the pieces of the puzzle. Putting one in.. taking one out.. and seeing what is most likely. All of the major corps have had their hands caught in the cookie jar at some point. So again.. I am left with 'who do I believe?' I do not believe CCP anymore than I believe a poster on a forum.. maybe that didn't come across in the wording as well as it should have. My meaning simply was that CCPs cred is absolutely at question here. And if you look at the pieces I have found.. and you believe CCP to be intelligent people.. then it is very hard to think they missed this for 4 years. I think we both know it would take at least 3 years to have the skills to hold a POS in low/nosec. The pieces of what I have posted.. could just as easily be the truth as what ccp has told us.. which is far to little in my opinion. I will hold my ground on a few points.. as long as CCP is playing this game vs. its own customers I will not trust them! It is an unfair advantage to have a member of CCP in anyones corp. I will not budge from that belief. I will also hold my ground on the economists missing this problem. MM is a fundamental part of builing T2 in EvE. We are talking about something as basic as trit here. I will give missing it for a short time.. but much beyond 2yrs of missing this? I will go back to the 2 options.. a)involved in exploit or b)not qualified for the job This guy should have had spreadsheet after spreadsheet of fuel consumption vs production. I will give that there is much conspiracy here and little fact.. but CCP has forced players to find their own answers. So we have to choose what to believe!
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.20 05:23:00 - [38] Pretty sure that anyone who didn't benefit from this exploit feels that way. CCP and CSM is about to post new info soon. I am hoping that my confidence can be restored to a degree. Unfortunately EvE is a closed loop economy. They would have to remove billions and billions to reverse the effect. Odds are anything T2 you own has a piece of that evil in it. There are ways they could balance it out.. but odds are they will only post what they can and hope it dies.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.20 14:41:00 - [39] Even if it is half the worst case scenario.. it is still a worst case situation.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.23 19:15:00 - [40] They don't have PR.. they have marketing! Distinctly different. Silence simply gives time for everyone to pick a side. Do ya think they were in on it? or do you think they are morons for missing it? or are you someone who blindly trusts CCP without question and sees absolutely nothing wrong with how it is being handled? Are you going be the person who tells people to "leave" if they don't like it? Only a few options.. In either event, let is hope CCPs information is a bit more defined and has less loopholes than the 1st go round.

URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:12:00 - [41] last announcement was that there would be an an indepth response by end of this month, start of next. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.26 21:42:00 - [42] All we know is that we do not know.. I would simply point to the 1000lb gorilla in the room.. If CCP can not see the balance of fuel cost to moon mats produced.. something which is as basic as basic can be.. well come to your own conclusions..
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:32:00 - [43] Originally by: Rata Nrnima In little over a few weeks (March 10th) this will be forgotten in the excitement of the modular vessels, the worm hole,and all the overlooked programming issues in rush to get the patch out to divert attention. Whatever excitement that would have been there for me has been dampened by foreknowledge that BOB or whomever will already have the advantage,the modules, the what-evers. They will have the wormholes, the tech 3 minerals, access to the bpo's, etc. And all of it will be FREE. There are a mere handful of customers that frequent these forums and even less bother to comment. Those that do are either CCP stooges reiterating adnausium the company line, or customers genuinely upset getting spammed by CCP stooges. Easily recognizable by rhetoric and strict adherance to company defense. Then there are those whose sole purpose is to divert the conversation to the assinine. CCP does not have to care. Most of it's client base is totally unaware of the scandal and the rest don't care. Ironic that the isk vendors / a few exploiters are banneded / denigrated and CCP gets another pass. Rata there is only one way to change it.. and it's gonna take a **** ton of us to do it.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.28 04:23:00 - [44] folks of a similar mind who are simply questioning what we are told and/or asking why the delay.. or are simply PO'd at this situation. I would like to discuss this issue in game.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.28 19:01:00 - [45] common sense would suggest you are correct. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.29 03:54:00 - [46] See I guess I find it odd that people paying $150+ a year wouldn't be ticked off that this sort of thing slipped through. It really is as simple as a customers right to expect a certian level of service. Now if you don't happen to care..thats fine. However, I fail to see the point of posting simply to gripe about customers with legit concerns. We pay for the game just like you.. our concerns shouldnt bother you anymore than CCPs failures bother you. I am well aware that there are vast 1000s who don't care about this.. they just want to play. What you are missing is that by us demanding to know the truth, we may very well be motivating CCP to make sure this never happens again. Which would benefit us all.. including the people who simply.. don't care. I could explain to you in simple detail why I think what I do.. but since you don't care... I won't tire you with any of that burdensome mind clutter. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.30 01:47:00 - [47] As I said.. if anyone of like mind would like to discuss this in game. Feel free to contact me. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.31 15:40:00 - [48] the last update was about 2 weeks ago from CSM.. saying there would be an extremely detailed report which would explain every thing except the names of the pilots. Which basically is saying that they have proved the theory of relativeity.. but we can't show you the evidence.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.31 21:50:00 - [49] Ok I have continued to look around to find a reason why I should trust CCP on their handling of this issue.. In their last statement CCP said they couldn't see it until it was too late. I recently found something that was rather interesting and thought I would share it, and let folks make up their own mind. As we all know EvE has an economist Dr.EyjoG http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=author&p=CCP%20Dr.EyjoG The good Dr himself has professed that minerals and all building mats are the very Foundation of EvE. I would like folks to look at the many indepth graphs posted by the good Dr here from 2007 http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=498 Clearly you can see the good Doc has access to massive ammounts of data involving the very foundations of the eve economy. Please pay particular attention to the smaller graphs noting TOTAL MINERALS in the game.... broken down by mineral types. Now this 'exploit' if you can call it that.. was pumping out free mats every cycles x 6 stations .. per the Doc..In 2007 there was an avg of 1.6 trillion in minerals traded daily. Now moon mats are not exactly as plentiful as trit.. pye.. ane possibly even as rare or rarer than zyd. Now the Doc can track trillions of minerals.. but not moon mats? So to all those people who have simply tossed stones at me, rather than engaging in intelligent friendly discourse.. I must say.. check mate! I am now 99.999% confident that CCP can see every input/output of the game. If they can pull data like that on minerals.. I know they have it all right at their fingertips.
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.02.01 18:08:00 - [50] Rata, it does not matter.. we now know they have the ability to see it. And since moon mats are as vital as trit to the economy.. only a fool would think they could not see this problem.

URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.02.04 14:41:00 - [51] The delay is pathetic really..
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.02.05 15:17:00 - [52] In light of recent news...more light may be shed on this exploit.

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